Obama vs. Clinton II, this time in Ohio

MSNBC's Ohio debate starts with a quick ad for Cleveland State, courtesy Brian Williams. It somehow feels much more local at the top than CNN's debate last week from Texas.

The audience is definitely less racuous; Obama and Clinton are sitting on different sides of the stage from last week, he on the right she the left. There aren't really any rules, claims Brian; except for some sortof time limits.

Tim Russert looks fierce and heavily made-up; it's an interesting setup, the four of them seated at a large ovalish table.

They start with clips of Hillary's comments, going from honor to shame. She's got a huge smile on her face, odd. She's going on about the fliers, he's just giving her the stare of death. She pivots to health care, and just goes on about it. Looks tough, her usual crip demeanor.

Curious to see his rebuttal. Staying with Hillary, Williams brings up the Obama photo. She says she doesn't know where it came from, would fire the person. He says let's set it aside, I take her at her word on the photo. Hmmm, very interesting.

Goes to health care, says he's endured repeated negative ads from Senator Clinton about 15 million people being left out. She thinks a mandate's a way to go; I don't. Raises specific questions about her health care plan. Says she's constantly sent out negative attacks. Seems very crisp, says we haven't whined about it because I understand it's the nature of campaigns.

Clinton says let's stay on this, it's important. Says he has a mandate in his plan, on parents; I know from my work that there's cherry-picking unless everyone's covered. Universal health care is a core Democratic party value; Obama's mailing reads like the GOP and insurance companies wrote it.

Obama says it's not accurate for her to say that. Repeats we don't know how she's going to enforce the mandate, and we don't know what the subsidies are--they fine people in Massachusetts under their Clinton-ish plan. Obama concludes insurance companies like having a mandate, forces everyone to buy their product.

Clinton says her plan is affordable because they have enough money in it; not making it mandatory is like making Social Security voluntary. Obama gets the last word, repeats he won't accept her saying he's not going for universal health care--if we make it affordable, people will purchase it, just like Medicare Part B.

Obama, I think, gets the best of this exchange, not just with the last word but also with his style. Clinton tries to talk over Williams, beginning to sound a bit strident. Obama keeps trying to say something, she talks over him too. Obama is very cool, gets in the last word.

16 minutes on health care, says Brian Williams, and then goes to Nafta. Some in Texas says it's great, some in Ohio says no. Asks Clinton what she thinks.

Clinton points out in the last few debates she seems to get the first question every time, cites the Saturday Night Live skit. But I'm happy to answer it. That's kindof funny, generally journalists balance these things out.

She's really wound up, goes on a long thing about Nafta, says we need a plan to fix it. Says Obama's Nafta attacks are wrong, citing Cleveland Plain Dealer. I don't think she should have said that, she's wrong on that line, should talk about the issue in general.

Obama says it's inaccurate for Clinton to say she's always opposed Nafta. Links Youngstown to Illinois, I've always thought the agreement was flawed. I think she's shifted positions on this; I think that's a good thing. Cites his experience as an organizer on the streets of Chicago. He's really in fine form tonight; very presidential, tough but not rude. She's going to get increasingly frustrated, curious to see if there's some sort of meltdown.

Russert's turn, asks Clinton about her husband's stance, and confronts her with past statements. Brings up Al Gore's words, says we can get out of it in six months. Will you say that?

Clinton says I'll renegotiate it; we will opt out unless we renegotiate it. Let's be fair; there are lots of part of the country that have benefitted. Other places have not. She tries to shift to Obama, Russert says let's stay on you, your words are much different.

She hits him back, you don't have all the record. Not sure how well Russert's style will play here, he likes being right in the mix of things, a bit hard when the two opponents want that role too. She's really digging in, very deliberate and tough.

Russert turns toward Obama, will you opt out? He says I'll renegotiate, Clinton is right on this--use it as leverage to get new standards, we haven't had that so far. Says when he ran for the Senate, the Tribune said in its endorsement it was endorsing him despite his opposition to Nafta. Corrects Russert on something he quotes from his speech, look at the whole thing, let's negotiate on behalf of workers, not just Wall Street.

Man, he is really in good form tonight, pivots into a speech about his support for the working man. Russert asks him about whether these old jobs are just gone, maybe it's been better over all? Obama says not good for Ohio, but trade should in general be part of our economic strategy. Says let's invest in infrastructure, let's invest in science and technology, education, energy.

Russert goes back to Clinton, about her economic blueprint--upstate New York hasn't gotten new jobs, unlike what you said in 2000, are you just being exhuberant again. She says no, I was counting on a Democratic White House. Good answer; we can create at least 5 million new jobs, 22.7 million jobs were created during my husband's terms; I'm not just talking about it, have passed programs to do it.

This is a very different debate than the CNN one; the answers are much longer, candidates are much more into it early.

Back to Williams, asks Obama about Clinton hitting him on foreign policy yesterday. It's actually going to be an easy question for him, he's just going to say judgment over experience. Asks him how are you going to stack up against John McCain?

She equates experience with longevity in Washingon--that's a bad measure. I was right on the Iraq war, lists why he was against it; links McCain to it, quoting his 100 years comment. Brings up his Pakistan/Musharraf comment, we've got the worst of all worlds there now. On the critical issues that matter, my judgment has been superior to Clinton and McCain.

Williams gives her a chance to repeat her speech claims that Obama's not ready, she fillibusters and talks about her own points. She says Obama gave a good speech against the war, but he didn't have responsibility, and didn't have to vote--wow, she's going to try and claim there's no difference between them on Iraq? Hmm; compare it when we both had the responsibility, we've pretty much voted the same. This is a big mistake for Clinton, she's trying to convince us black is white; curious to see what he'll say. She then adds threatening to bomb Pakistan isn't a good position to take; I also don't think meeting with dictators without conditions is good.

Obama's all but smiling; jumps in, my opposition wasn't just a speech, it was a pattern, this is how I make decisions--it was a strategic blunder. Who's deciding to drive the bus into the ditch; she's not ready on day one, gave up to George Bush, she faciliated and enabled his bad decision. I never said I'd bomb Pakistan--very crisply dismisses her; instead, we should strike against terrorists; the Bush administration just did that a few days ago, we should've done that to begin with. It's not just based on a speech, it's based on the judgments I've displayed. Let's debate McCain with different positions, not the same.

Russert cuts off Clinton's half-hearted efforts to respond; she really just got hammered. What if Iraq doesn't let you pull out slowly but wants you either in or out, what would you do? It's not really directed at either, but at this stage of the debate Obama's driving the bus.

Obama says if the government doesn't want us there, we can't be there, they're a sovereign government. We can't enable them permanently, let's not be held hostage by the Iraqi government. This has consistently been his best answer during the debates, he delivers again.

Russert turns to Clinton, she's a bit weary; Russert tries to cut her off, and does--wow. If Iraq goes crazy, do you have the right to go back in? Clinton says you're asking a lot of hypotheticals--it's in everyone's interest to have an orderly withdrawal. We can take out 1 to 2 brigades a month. I've been a leader in pushing us to get out; we have to make judgments on what's in the best interests of America. Obama talks about Afghanistan, he chairs the committee that oversees Europe, why hasn't he pushed NATO to do something there? Hmmm, good question.

Russert cuts her off, wants Obama to respond, and also answer the Iraq question. Obama says he became chair in 2007--it's true I haven't had hearings. I've been clear what I think we should do. Hmm, there's her opening, she should pound him on it--why do you talk, but not do.

Then he pivots to Iraq, I always reserve the right to look out for American interests. That's true in other places; we should always cooperate with our allies, but if they're not acting, it's my job to make sure we're hunting them down.

Williams says we've gotta go to a break, and they do, despite Clinton's attempt to jump in. The audience laughs and applauds his comment that the first segment was very warm. Clinton's late getting back to the table, Obama's sitting there waiting. These little things are very interesting, if you're running for president you should be ready to speak when the cameras are back on.

Obama's up next, Williams says let's watch some tape of you, but instead they show Clinton mocking him earlier in the week. I mean, this is a total set-up for him, she looks ridiculous saying let the skies open up. He says, Sounds good, gets a big laugh from the audience. It was a technical screw-up, they ask him anyway.

He says with a smile she showed some good humor, I'd give her points for delivery. It's a perfect answer; she laughs. He says look, I understand her point--but I've spent 20 years working for families. Lists a bunch of his accomplishments. If Clinton thinks it's all talk, tell that to the people I've helped--veterans, people who benefitted from my ethics reform legislation. Says he'll make one point, met with four women in Cincinnati, tells their stories.

He's essentially taking advantage of Williams being embarassed over the technical glitch and scoring some points; sums up the women as saying nobody's been listening to them. I'm not interesting in talk, speeches; I wouldn't run if I didn't think I could help people concretely.

Williams asks her what did you mean, she says she was having fun; the larger point is it's not easy to do these things. It takes a fighter, somebody who will go toe to toe with the special interests. Man, I hope he says he hasn't taken any money from special interests, but you have.

She starts listing bills she voted on, and what Obama did; he wants to respond, she goes on. Williams says let's watch the video, Obama wants to respond. The clip is him saying she can't just take credit for the good things, and run away from things you don't like. Williams asks what about this co-president thing.

He says she includes her eight years as First Lady; he says that's fine, all I'm saying is you have to own up to the bad things. He's totally reasonable, this is a winning argument for him. Pivots to her last responses. He says on credit cards, I objected to the entire bill; she voted for it, but said she hoped it wouldn't pass. He says that's not a good thing. On being a fighter on health care, he says he doesn't doubt her intentions, but her approach was wrong because her view is what's required is to fight. She fought everyone.

Man, he is really taking her to town. Lists a bunch of Democrats who were left out in '93. Hope isn't enough, if it was it'd already be done; the only way we're going to get this stuff done is mobilize and inspire the people so they're paying attention to their government; second, go after the special interests. Brings up you can't take millions from the special interests, they're less likely to go away.

My gosh, it's devastating--and Clinton doesn't try to respond!

Russert asks him what about keeping your word, on public financing. You seem to be waffling, will you keep your word. Obama says I'm not yet the nominee, very seriously and smoothly, Clinton's a pretty tough opponent. I will sit down with McCain, and make sure we have a system that's fair for both sides. Hits McCain on his public financing waffling.

Obama is totally on a roll, then says let's point out I haven't take PAC money, or lobbyist money--it costs millions, but it was the right thing to do. We've raised 90% from small donors, average donation is $109--my god, he's totally dominating this debate.

Russert asks Clinton why you release your income taxes, speaks for a while about who's bankrolling your campaign. She's like shell-shocked or something, pitches people to go to her website. Says she'll release her tax returns, others do it when you become the nominee, or even earlier. I've been open, the public has 20 years of records. Before Tuesday asks Russert? I can't get it together before then she says, it's just a horrible answer, says she doesn't have time.

Russert hits her again, will you release your public schedule from your husband's terms? She says I want it to go as quick as possible. She's totally stumbling, it's totally bad for her; tries to attack Bush.

Now it's Obama's turn, Farrakan's endorsement. He says he's been clear in his denunciation of his anti-Semitic comments, I did not solicit this; he's proud of me, I can't censor him, but we're not doing anything with him. Russert asks will you reject his support? Obama says I've been clear in my denunciations of him. Russert tries to bring up Farrakan's statements; Obama cuts him up, I've always denounced it.

Now Russert asks him about his pastor. Obama is looking very cold as Russert says what do you say to Jewish Americans, and your stance on Israel. Obama says some of my strongest support is from the Jewish community because I've been a strong friend of Israel, we have a special relationship with them. The reason I have such strong support is because I don't tolerate anti-Sematism, and because I want to rebuild the historic friendship between blacks and Jews. If it weren't for Jews in the civil rights movement, I wouldn't be sitting here.

Wow; I mean, he's really been at his peak tonight. The people who know me best support me, have consistently been willing to speak out even when it's not comfortable; closes with his MLK sermon, spoke out against anti-Semitism within the African-American community.

Clinton jumps in, says I faced a similar situation in New York, [but] I made it clear that I did not want the support of a smaller party that supported me and rejected it. That's very interesting, she's basically faulting Obama, Russert says are you saying Obama's not standing on principle and isn't doing the right thing.

Obama flashes a smile as she says no, but then goes on to critique his stance while pretending she's not. Obama says I don't see the difference, but I will say I reject and denounce Farrakan if that makes Clinton feel better. Clinton says good, good.

Williams jokes as the audience claps that they're driven to jump in to applaud the discussion over the difference between reject and denounce, and we go to break.

It's really quite amazing to me how much Obama has controlled the debate; it's a clear win for him so far, if you want to score it in those terms. More importantly, he's coming across as ready to be president, on day one.

Back from break, Williams asks him about the National Journal rating him as the most liberal Senator. He says let's talk specifically about what we were rated on; I differed from Clinton on two things. One about illegal immigration, the other about setting up a Senate office of public integrity, so it's not Senators investigating each other. The Journal calls that a liberal position--I don't think it is. The categories in that scorecard don't make sense.

And, he pivots and makes the bigger point--I get support because people don't want to stick with these tired old labels. The proof is in the pudding, I get more GOP and Independent support than anyone, and I beat McCain in all the polls.

No follow-up or Clinton interjection; Russert then asks a gotcha question, what can you tell us about the man who's going to replace Putin in Russia this weekend? Clinton probably doesn't know the guy's name--neither do I--and goes on about how the whole process isn't democratic. Putin will still make the decisions; Russert asks her if she knows the name, she kindof stumbles but gets it out with some help from him, she says whatever.

Obama says yeah, it's not democratic, then pivots perfectly and says let's remember what Bush said about Putin, that he looked in his eyes and liked him, faults Bush on his Russia policy. Russert rehashes the guy's bio, asks Obama what happens if he tries to send troops into Serbia; Obama doesn't blink, says we don't have to work in isolation, we have a strong international structure in place in NATO.

Then compliments the Clinton administration for its work in the Balkans, I mean Obama is holding a master class on how to excel in a presidential debate. He's totally comfortable, and it's quite amazing to watch.

Russert asks what you'd take back in your career as a public servant. Clinton says she's said many times she'd take back her vote on Iraq. Then, implausibly, she says this election has to be about the future, what we're going to do around the world, sketches out a list of countries and what's going on in each one. Says I'm uniquely qualified, with my experience on both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue.

Obama says in his first year in the Senate the Terri Schiavo case was going on, we adjourned with a unanimous agreement that allowed Congress to intervene later. I wasn't comfortable with it, as a constitutional law scholar I should have known better.

But let me say this as we're wrapping up this debate. We've gone through 20 debates now, there's a lot of fight left, but I'm very proud to have been going up against Clinton. It's his turn to be magnanimous, in some ways reflecting what she said at the end in Texas.

People's expectations are so modest, people just want a bit of a hand up, they're not looking for government to solve all their problems, we need to change how business is done in Washington. Whoever wins the nomination, we'll both fight for the people.

Russert sortof cuts him off, then Williams says we do have a closing question, what does Clinton need to answer. He says I think she'd be worthy, I think I'd be better; there's no doubt that she's qualified, capable, and would be much better than John McCain. Goes after McCain; he's not going to play Williams' game; the question is idiotic, no candidate is going to end talking about what his opponent needs to prove to be president.

Obama concludes instead he thinks he's better because he can bring the country better in a unique way. I have a track record of bringing a bias in favor of opening up government so people can have confidence that their voice is being heard.

Clinton says this campaign is history-making on either end, gets applause from the audience when she says the first woman president would change a lot of things. The question I've been posing, she claims, is who would better change the country. Says when she failed on universal health care, she got to work on children's health legislation, cites someone she met today. I want to help people get the chances they deserve; doesn't list Vermont in her list of the four states voting next, Obama's been careful to do that.

Williams says the whole thing is reairing; thanks to everyone, etc. Obama is first to stand up, first to shake hands with Clinton, then Williams, then Russert. Chelsea comes out and hugs her mom, Obama's out working the crowd, she comes out too.

Really--it's very rare that you watch a debate and can say one person clearly won, and it wasn't even close. That happened tonight.